The Online Library of Liberty

A project of Liberty Fund, Inc.

• To the Right Honourable the Lord Pagett.
• The Independent Whig.
• Number Lv.: of Blasphemy.
• Number Lvi.: of Mutual Charity and Forbearance.
• Number Lvii.: the Vanity As Well As Wickedness of Persecution.
• Number Lviii.: a Dialogue Between Monsieur Jurieu, and a Burgomaster of Rotterdam.
• Number Lix.: Dialogue Between Mr. Jurieu, and a Burgomaster, Continued.
• Number Lx.: Conclusion of the Dialogue Between Mr. Jurieu and a Burgomaster.
• Number Lxi.: Force and Fraud, How Opposite to the Spirit of Religion. the Very Different Effects of Religious Liberty, and False Zeal.
• Number Lxii.: Power and Imposition, In Matters of Religion, Tend Rather to Abolish Religion, Than to Improve It. the Light of Nature, and the Practice of Heathens, Furnish Reproof to Persecuting Christians.
• Number Lxiii.: the Consuming Nature of Persecution. Persecutors Generally Religious Mad-men. Their Egregious Want of Shame, and Utter Unfitness to Make Converts.
• Number Lxiv.: Mutual Bitterness and Persecution Amongst Christians, How Repugnant to the Gospel, and How Shocking to a Rational Pagan.
• Number Lxv.: of the Strange Force of Education, Especially In Matters of Religion.
• Number Lxvi.: the Extravagant Notions and Practice of Penance, How Generally Prevailing As a Necessary Part of Religion, Even Amongst Such As Know Not, Or Neglect, All the Other and Real Penalties.
• Number Lxvii.: the Principle and Practice of Penance; Its Extravagance and Ill Tendency Further Considered.
• Number Lxviii.: the Teachers of All Sects ( Who Lay Claim to Power and Submission ) How Apt to Reproach, Yet How Much Resembling Each Other.
• Number Lxix.: the Hierarchy of Rome, How Like That of Japan. the Obvious Danger to a State From Popish Missionaries.
• Number Lxx.: Dialogue Between a Country Clergyman and a Quaker.
• Number Lxxi.: Dialogue Between a Country Clergyman and a Quaker Continued.
• Number Lxxii.: Dialogue Between a Country Clergyman and a Quaker Continued.
• Number Lxxiii.: Dialogue Between a Country Clergyman and a Quaker, Continued.
• Number Lxxiv.: of the Character and Capacity of the Fathers of the Church.
• A Letter to the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury; Proving, That His Grace Cannot Be the Author of the Letter to an Eminent Presbyterian Clergyman In Switzerland; In Which Letter the Present State of Religion In England Is Blackened and Exposed.
• An Examination of the Facts and Reasonings In the Lord Bishop of Chichester ’ S Sermon, Preached Before the House of Lords, On the 30 Th of Jan. 1731. Humbly Addressed to His Lordship.
• A Sermon Preached Before the Learned Society of Lincoln’s-inn, On Jan. 30. 1732. From Job XXXIV. 30. That the Hypocrite Reign Not, Lest the People Be Ensnared.
• A Supplement to the Sermon Preached At Lincoln’s-inn, On Jan. 30, 1732. By a Layman. Addressed to a Very Important and Most Solemn Churchman, Solicitor-general For Causes Ecclesiastical.

Number LXX.

Dialogue between a Country Clergyman and a Quaker.

Clergyman.

I AM glad of this Opportunity of talking with you. It was what I wanted.

Quaker.

And why didst thee not take it before? I never shunned thee.

Cler.

I am your Minister: It became you to come to me.

Qua.

I promise thee, thou art none of my Minister; I’ll have none but of my own chusing. Besides, if thou mindest thy Pride more than my Salvation, and art too great to come to thy Parishioners, small is my Encouragement to come to thee: The Apostles stood not thus upon their Dignity.

Cler.

The Apostles went to those who could not come to them.

Qua.

And to those that would not.

Cler.

A modest Man would have doubted, and heard what I had to say.

Qua.

Friend, hast thou thyself no Doubts about the Straitness of the Way that thou art in?

Cler.

Certainly, no.

Qua.

Then am I more modest than thou art. I often doubt, and go to God with my Doubts.

Cler.

But you should go to him in a proper Way.

Qua.

I seek him by Prayer, and endeavour to understand his Will from the Scriptures of Truth. Knowest thou a more proper Way?

Cler.

Do you understand the holy Scriptures?

Qua.

It is thy Fault, and the Fault of thy Brethren, if I do not. The Clergy have translated them.

Cler.

But there are still many difficult Places in them, which the Clergy understand best.

Qua.

If the Clergy understand them, then are they not difficult to Laymen who know Languages: And why do not the Clergy explain them?

Cler.

That is their Business.

Qua.

Then they ill understand their Business, since they vary and quarrel so much about it.

Cler.

They only differ in controverted Points.

Qua.

No more don’t thee and I.

Cler.

But I mean Points controverted amongst us.

Qua.

That is to say, all Points. Even where you say you believe alike, you explain differently; which sheweth a manifest Difference also in believing. And art not thou unreasonable to expect, nay, to demand Union amongst the People, when the Clergy themselves are the Authors of Disunion?

Cler.

Therefore we renounce such Clergymen.

Qua.

And they renounce thee. And do not the Quakers act wisely to renounce you all, as you all do one another?

Cler.

You speak harshly, and untruly: There are Numbers of us who adhere together in our Sentiments.

Qua.

And there are Numbers who adhere together against you, and yet call themselves of the same Church with you.

Cler.

I am sorry for it.

Qua.

So oughtest thou to be for charging me with speaking untruly, when thou thyself bearest Testimony to the Truth which I speak.

Cler.

But you go too far.

Qua.

I do not, nay, I will go farther, and maintain, that the Numbers thou boastest of in Union with thee, were every Man to explain his Belief his own Way, would all vary from thee, and from one another.

Cler.

I do not think so: However, their varying in Belief is no Reason for believing.

Qua.

But it is a good Reason why every Man should have his own Belief.

Cler.

Then there will be no End of Confusions.

Qua.

No more there is not in Opinions and Doctrines.

Cler.

And is not that a deplorable Case?

Qua.

So is the Fall of Adam: Canst thou cure it?

Cler.

They are not parallel Cases.

Qua.

Depend upon it, thou may’st as easily bring back Adam into a State of Innocence, as all his Posterity into one Mind.

Cler.

What, can’t I reason a Man into my Opinion?

Qua.

Yes, if he like thy Opinion, and thy Reasoning: Perhaps he will think them both stark naught.

Cler.

That may be his Fault.

Qua.

And it may be thine. How are thy Opinions better than mine? I think them worse.

Cler.

They are warranted by the holy Scriptures.

Qua.

I think mine are: I’ll promise thee, I’ll try them by the Scriptures, which I think I can interpret as well as thou canst. I’ll tell thee further, that I am satisfied the God of Mercy never damned any Man for mistaking it; for I take it, that in revealing his Word he mocketh not Men, by giving them a Riddle instead of a Revelation.

Cler.

You know little of Scripture, if you do not know, that there are in it Places which you cannot understand.

Qua.

Nor canst thou. As to those Places, though they may be his Will, yet I am sure they are not his revealed Will, because he hath not revealed it; and if I take thy Interpretation and Conjectures for his Word, then do I believe in thy Word, and not in his. Now, where hath he commanded me to believe in thee?

Cler.

He has commanded you to believe me, when I speak in his Name.

Qua.

And so art thou to believe me, when I speak in his Name.

Cler.

But I am his Ambassador.

Qua.

There I do not believe thee, because thou speakest in thy own Name.

Cler.

Why, does not St. Paul say, We are Ambassadors in his Stead?

Qua.

Yes: Art thou Paul?

Cler.

No, I am only his Successor; he himself is dead.

Qua.

So are his Gifts and Miracles: Canst thou work Miracles? If not, how dost thou succeed him?

Cler.

I preach the Gospel which he preached.

Qua.

So do I, and bear my own Charges, as he did his; and why should I pay thee for doing what I can do as well myself? I do not find, that Paul has left thee any Wages, and I am sure he has left thee nothing else; his Epistles are left to every Man.

Cler.

Yes, he has left Ministers to wait upon God’s Ordinances in the House of God. I am one of those Ministers.

Qua.

Friend, as thou art a Christian, thou must needs know, that every House is alike to Almighty God, who filleth Heaven and Earth, and dwelleth not in Houses made with Hands: And as to what you call Ordinances, thou knowest that the Apostles administered none. Every Man did it for himself, and it was done from House to House. There were no bloody Sacrifices in the Religion of Jesus, and consequently no Priests, their only Office being to slay Beasts.

Cler.

Dare you say that God has appointed nobody in his Church to preach and explain his Word?

Qua.

No; I neither do nor dare say it; and thou may’st spare thy big Words. He hath left every Man to preach it to another; nor doth it appear that thou hast any more Call from him than every one of thy Parish hath. If thou wouldest resemble the Apostles, go and preach to the Unconverted without Money, and without Price. Thy whole Parish believe in Christ already, as much as thou doest, and did before they knew thee. They have the Bible themselves; and if thou bringest them any Tidings that are not in it, and that they themselves see not in it, they ought not to believe thee.

Cler.

You argue very insincerely with me. Just now you contended that I had none of St. Paul’s Gifts; and now you would have me go without those Gifts, and do what he did with them; namely, travel over the World, and convert the Unconverted.

Qua.

No, I only would shew thee, that as thou dost not resemble him, thou art vain in pretending to succeed him; and so far I reason consistently, as thou dost weakly, if thou claimest all his Reverence without any of his Merit.

Cler.

I do not set up for the Abilities of St. Paul; but still have Qualifications superior to Laymen.

Qua.

What are those Qualifications?

Cler.

I know Languages; I have had an University-Education; and - - -

Qua.

All these are civil Qualifications, common to all Men, who would be at the Pains and Charge. Laymen understand Latin and Greek as well as thou dost. The Gospel wanteth no Embellishment from those whom thou callest: Virgil and Horace; and Christ crucified is not sought nor found in Universities, nor indeed the Flesh crucified. If I am not misinformed, they abound with young Men who are too often Sinners, and with old Men, who are no Saints. They are Schools of Words; but the Gospel hath nothing to do with thy Logic and vain Philosophy.

Cler.

I was going to tell you too, that I had studied Divinity.

Qua.

Knowest thou any Divinity but what is in the Bible? and have not I the Bible? I think, and am sure, that it is a plain and intelligible Book, at least as much of it as is meet for a Christian; and to turn it into Doubtfulness, and Disputation, and Science, and Gain, savoureth not of Christianity.

Cler.

This is insolently said: Who turns it into Gain?

Qua.

He who maketh a Gain of it; which is worse than Insolence, whereof thou dost groundlesly accuse me.

Cler.

What, do you not declare against Preachers?

Qua.

I have already told thee, I do not: I would have all Men Preachers.

Cler.

Ay, Tinkers, and Taylors, and Coblers.

Qua.

Friend, beware of thy Words: What were the Apostles? They were no University Gentry.

Cler.

But you say, that we want the Apostles Gifts.

Qua.

I wish thou couldst confute me. However, we have all of us the Apostles Books; and canst thou mend them?

Cler.

No: But I can enforce them; and the Labourer is worthy of his Hire, if you will believe St. Paul.

Qua.

But if he laboureth for himself, why should I pay him? I profit not by thy Labour; why shouldst thou profit by my Substance? I believe Paul; but Paul hath given thee no Property in my Pigs and Barley.

Cler.

But the Law has.

Qua.

The Law is not Paul. But I perceive, whoever is the Giver, thou wilt be the Taker.

Cler.

Sir, you are rude.

Qua.

How? Because I do thee Justice.

Cler.

Let me tell you, Sir, there is Reason in it, as well as Law.

Qua.

Thy Interest may be Reason to thee. But thou wilt be put to it, to give me a Reason for giving thee something for nothing.

Cler.

Don’t you know, that under the Law, the Priests had their Lot in the Land?

Qua.

Yes: But they were Jewish Priests, or Sacrificers. Art thou a Jew? And dost thou kill Cattle as they did? And wouldst thou reconcile Judaism to Christianity?

Cler.

No; I would only shew, that it is reasonable that Priests should have a proper Appointment.

Qua.

I have already shewn thee the Unreasonableness of having any Priests in Christianity.

Cler.

In this you saucily differ from all the Societies of Christians in the World.

Qua.

I do not differ from Christianity; nor am I saucy in differing from those that do. The blessed Jesus hath left thee no Legacy, that I know of, nor so much as named thee in his Will.

Cler.

The Man grows profane.

Qua.

Thou meanest unanswerable. Is it any Article of thy Creed, that Truth is profane?

Cler.

Your having no established Ministers amongst you, is enough to render your Sect odious to all sorts of Christians.

Qua.

We have Religion established amongst us. Is Religion odious in the Eyes, where there is not a Livelihood to be got out of it? We establish no Clergy, lest they should disestablish the Peace and Purity of the Gospel; and whilst our Preachers are under the Influence of the Holy Spirit, we reckon they will seek no Money. We therefore do not keep in Pay Men who sell Speech.

Cler.

The Truth is, the Speeches uttered amongst you are not worth buying.

Qua.

Friend, no Speeches in the House of God ought to be bought, nor the Tabernacle be turned into a Shop. Why sellest thou thine, which, as Report saith, are not alluring? Freely you have received, freely give. Friend, what did the Gospel cost thee? Or why should we purchase it at thy dear Price, when we have it in our Houses in more Purity and Plainness than thou can’st give it?

Cler.

Yes, and you understand it by the Spirit.

Qua.

Thou sayest it. We trust to the Spirit to direct us, who is promised to all that ask him. Thou trustest to Henry Hammond and Daniel Whitby for Direction. Whether art thou or we best directed?

Cler.

I shall not believe that the Spirit is the Author of the Enthusiasm and Dreams that are found amongst you.

Qua.

The carnal Man discerneth not the Things of God. Paul was called a Babbler by the Athenians, whose Priests, who were many, had no Illumination; but being Men of dark and voluptuous Minds, and feeding upon Sacrifices and Offerings, preferred Bacchus and his Grapes to the Spirit of Christ.

Cler.

The Comparison you would insinuate is impudent and profane.

Qua.

Friend, Meekness becometh a Preacher. Thou hast the Passion of a Priest, but not the Meekness of a Minister of the Gospel. Why dost thou fall upon me with bitter Words, for telling thee a Fact which, in Answer to thee, it was necessary to tell? Is it profane to say, that the heathen Clergy took Offerings? Nay, since thou dost urge me, dost not thou take Offerings? and did the Apostles take any? I have put thee between these Priests and the Apostles, that by comparing thyself with both, thou mayst see whom thou resemblest most.

Cler.

If this be not Profaneness, I know not what is.

Qua.

The Profaneness is not on my Side.

Cler.

Let me inform you, Sir, that for this Lauguage, in some Countries, you would have your Tongue cut out of your Head.

Qua.

I know it; and praise God that I am not in those Countries, and that thou canst not bring those Countries hither. It is plain, that thou approvest their Barbarity; else why dost thou think it due to me? I beg thou wouldst not be provoked, if I mention to thee once more the Example of the Apostles: Where did they justify Savageness and Severity to any Man for any Opinion, or any Words? Where did they ever talk to Pagans as thou dost to me, who am a Christian, and endeavour to possess the Temper of the Gospel?

Cler.

Yes, you have a Form of Godliness: But - - -

Qua.

Friend, in the first Place, judge not; and secondly, beware what thou sayest against Forms, for thy own sake.

Cler.

I say, if your Preachers had Power, they would quickly find Texts for Persecution.

Qua.

I guess thou judgest by thyself; and thou judgest well. We know it; and therefore give them no Power, nor the Sinews of Power. Pride and Impatience are inseparable from it: It destroyeth all Humility, and maketh Men imperious, and Persecutors. Why are the Popish Priests more cruel and mischievous than Protestant Priests, but because they have more Power? And why is the Pope the most mischievous of all Priests, but because he hath most Power?

Cler.

You carry every thing too far. Preachers of the Gospel ought to be kept above Contempt.

Qua.

Friend, they who are rich in spiritual Things, want no other Riches to save them from Contempt; and they who are rich without these, ought to be contemned. Riches may render them formidable; but Piety only, and a holy Conversation, can make them reverenced. Revenues do not place them above Contempt, but only encourage them to despise the People. The Poverty of the Apostles was great Part of their Glory.