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The Clarke Papers. Selections from the Papers of William Clarke, Secretary to the Council of the Army, 1647-1649, and to General Monck and the Commanders of the Army in Scotland, 1651-1660, ed. C.H. Firth (Camden Society, 1901). 4 vols.

Editor: Sir William Clarke
Editor: Charles Harding Firth

Part of: The Clarke Papers. Selections from the Papers of William Clarke, 4 vols.

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[Articles against General Poyntz.]

The charge against Generall Poynts in reference to what he hath acted against his Excellency Sir Thomas Fairfax, and his Army in the South, and against the Northerne Association now under his Excellencie’s command.

1^st. That Colonell Generall Poynts did very much endeavour to render his Excellency’s person and authority contemptible and insufficient for the managing of those affairs which the Honorable Houses have intrusted him withall. Witness the letter written June 27^th to Colonel Copley, wherein he repeats his Excellency’s name double in a very scornful way, and deneys that the soldiers of those parts are under the command of his Excellency.

2^ly. He labours to render the Army more mediated under your Excellency’s command, under the notions of mutineers and necessary arrears, and rebellious Army,a as it appears by his letters written from York to Colonel Copley June 6^th. Another letter written to his officers to be read in the head of each troop, in which he terms some that were sent from the South, with some of our agents, Incendiaries, and that they endeavoured to withdraw these forces from their obedience to the Parliament with other scandalous reproaches to be read in the head of each troop, in reproach and disdain of that Army.

3^ly. That he endeavoured to reimbroyle this Kingdom in a 2^d warr, and to this end laboured to exasperate the spirits of the soldiers in the [north] against that Army as evidently appears; for upon his journey last from London to York, he reported he was come post to draw up his army, to quell the rebellious Army of Sir Thomas Fairfax; and did also endeavour to accomplish his sinister ends to gett into his power places of strength; and caused the Tower of York to be putt in a condition of present resistance meerly against the Army; to this end also he gave special order for the drawing his forces together, putting them in a posture for action against the Southern Army, having no order from the Parliament, as particularly at Selby, Tadcaster, Cawood, and Ferry Bridge, keeping guard for the apprehending of any that should come as he pretended to distemper the Northern Army.

4^ly. He threatned the Agitators from the Army with ours, to hang them if he could meet with them.

5^ly. He endeavoured to justify the 11 accused Members and kept correspondency with them, received divers letters from them, and wrote to them, acting what he did from their principles, and by their advice; for he can not deney, but that Sir Philip Stapylton desired him to keep his army in a posture ready for action till they should have occasion for them, which he did accordingly.

6^ly. His arbitary committing some officers for speaking in the behalf of the Army, and hanging one soldier without a councill of warr.

7^ly. His arming of a reduced company under Captain Peppar, who refused any engagement save against the Army.

8^ly. That he used all means possible to make both the Army and their Officers odious, as appears by his printed papers, which was not only to be read at the head of every troop, but likewise by his order putt upon many posts in marketts, rendring us and the Army unparalleld men, in taking the King by force, and likewise falsely reporting therein, that his Majesty was so farr from complyance with the Army, that he struck both his Excellency, Cromwell, and Whaly. This he printed at York purposely to divide us, and to make us odious to the whole Kingdom.

9^ly. That he threatened to disturb our nests, if we did continue to associate our selves with his Excellencie’s Army, and that he would use the Parliaments power in the apprehending of us.

a Poyntz was brought under a guard to Fairfax’s headquarters at Reading, and was immediately released by the General. The Agitators presented a charge against him which is evidently that here printed. Cary, i., 306, 308; Fairfax Correspondence, iii., 370. Compare the papers from the Northern Army, printed by Rushworth, vi., 620-625.
JOHN HOBGSON }	Colonel Copley’s Regiment.
W^m. BEGYTS }
JOHN DRAKE }	Colonel Bright’s Regiment.
JOHN MARK }
JOHN PENNINGTON }	Colonel Overton’s Regiment.
ROBERT MORRIS }
THO: ARTHUR }	Colonel Ponsonby’s Regiment.
THO: WHALERTON }
ROBERT SHARBY }	Colonel Collingworth’s Regiment.a
THO: MALLETT }

Representation of the Agitators presented at the Generall Councill of Warr July 16, 1647.

To his Excellency Sir Thomas Fairfax Knight Captain General of all the Forces raised and to be raised for the defence of the Kingdom, and to his Councill of Warr assembled at Cambridge July 16, 1647.

The humble petition and representation of the Agitators of Your Excellencies Army,

Humbly Sheweth

That your petitioners out of their deep sence of the sad and heavy pressures, great distractions, continual fears, and eminent dangers, under which this poor and bleeding Kingdom groans, expecting to be delivered and eased, whose peace, safety, and freedom from oppression, violence, and tyranny we tenderly and earnestly desire even above our own lives, are enforced to present these our humble requests in the name of the whole Army as their sence and desire, unto Your Excellency and this Honourable Councill, to be considered of, (if need be) corrected, and forthwith exhibited to the Parliament; And that for the reasons annexed to these ensueing desires, the Army may be immediately march’d to or near London, thereby to enable and assist the Parliament acting for the Kingdom’s ease and preservation, and to oppose all those that shall act the contrary.

For the accomplishment whereof we are fully resolved (by the assistance of God and his strength with Your Excellency and Your Councill of Warr’s concurrence) to putt a speedy period to these present distractions.

1^st. That by Order of the House the 11 Members by his Excellency and his Army impeached, and charged of high misdemeanors be forthwith sequestred, and disenabled from sitting in the House.

2^ly. That the Militia of the Citty of London be immediately returned into the hands of those in whom it lately was, who did approve themselves faithfull to the Kingdom and Citty in times of greatest dangers, an answer whereof we expect within two days.

3^ly. That there be an effectual Declaration forthwith published to the whole Kingdom, against the inviteing or coming in of forreign, or raising of intestine forces under any pretence whatsoever, except such as shall be by the Parliaments appointments, receive their commissions are and be at the disposall and command of his Excellency Sir Thomas Fairfax,a upon pain of being proceeded against as enemies and traitors to the State, disturbers of the publick peace, and invaders of this Kingdom.

4^ly. That all Prisoners who have been illegally committed in any part of the Kingdom of England or Dominion of Wales, may be forthwith sett at liberty, and reparation given them for their false imprisonment, as namely:—Lieutenant Collonel John Lilburn, Mr. Musgrave, Mr. Overton’s wife and brother, Mr. Larner, his two Lieutenants, Mr. Tew, Mr. Prest, and all others which have been in like manner wrongfully imprisoned; and for a more speedy effecting thereof there may be a Declaration published to the whole Kingdom and Dominion of Wales thereby commanding all Judges of Assizes, of Oyer and Terminer, Justices of Coram, and of the Peace, Mayors, Sheriffs, Bayliffs, and all other Officers and Ministers of State whatsoever (upon pain of severest punishment if they shall neglect to putt the same in execution) for the freeing of such as are in prison, and preventing the like for the future, upon the meanest subjects of the Kingdom.b

5^ly. That we may be speedily pay’d up equall with the Deserters of the Army, according to the Parliaments former Votes, whereby the Army may not be so burthensome and oppressive to the Country. And for the more speedy performance hereof, [that] the House of Peers would without delay concurr with the desires of the House of Commons for the reviving of the Committee of the Army, so many times urged by them to be done, that so the arrears of the Citty, which as we are credibly informed is 120,000^l or more, besides what is in several countys, may be by their authority gathered up; and all this to be done within 4 days for these reasons following viz^t:—

1^st. Because nothing hath been done in reference to what we have proposed and they promised, but two or three votes; which if the latitude thereof be fully understood and their little endeavours weighed for the fullfilling of them hitherto, may give us just grounds to believe that we by them are little regarded, nor these never to be performed.
2^ly. Because all those are countenanced, and some of them intrusted with places of preferment who have deserted the Army, and also summs of money to them pay’d; notwithstanding their votes to pay us up equall with those that deserted that we are left unpay’d, and thereby become burthensom to those whose burthens we desire earnestly to remove.
3^ly. Because that those that were by the Army impeach’d and charged, (both which impeachment and charge was by the House so accepted) yet are they still countenanced, and large summs of money since then for some of them not only by the House voted, but also fully pay’d; whereby they are fully enabled to manage their designs, and do the Kingdom greater disservice.
4^ly. Because that we by protracting of time impoverish the Country, which may alienate their affection from us, being the design of the obstructors of justice, thereby to destroy us and secure themselves.
5^ly. Because by delays we give them advantage to improve all their interest in raising of forces, to the disturbance and involving the poor Kingdom in a new and more bloody warr.
6^ly. Because this is the only expedient to know assuredly whether they will do what they have pretended and also promised, or otherwise all men may see and judge what they have intended and do endeavour.
7^ly. Because we see justice more perverted now than ever, and violent illegall proceedings of corrupt magistrates, against the most cordiall and well affected people in the Kingdom, who are wrongfully imprisoned, fined, &c., and as yet left remedyless.

These recited grounds and reasons with the additionals annexed being seriously considered, we can not but earnestly and submissively desire Your Excellency and this Honourable Councill so to dispose of the Army as may conduce to the accomplishment of those our humble requests, which we conceive will greatly advantage the Army and Kingdom.

Daniel Abbot (Major).

John Clarke, Capt.

Edm^d. Rolf, Capt.a

Additional Reasons more fully explaining our desires for a speedy march towards London.

1^st. The Armys removal to this distance from London hath given liberty and opportunity to an adverse party in that City to scandalize our persons and actions by pamphletts and otherwise, whereby they prejudice the spirits of many against us, they being depriv’d of opportunitys to understand personally from our selves both our actions and intentions by reason of our distance from them.

2^ly. Our adversarys by our removal farr from them have taken advantage to induce many thousands to list themselves (under such new Commanders as the new committee for the Militia hath judged fitt to prosecute their ends), under pretence of being auxiliary forces to the Trained Bands; And tho pretences may be specious, yet, considering that the principles of the actors have a natural tendency to oppose the Army, and that those whose principles did not concurr with theirs were displaced in order to these proceedings, who can imagine that any reason of such preparations, when no visible power appears against them, unless their thoughts and intentions be to oppose this Army? And indeed some lately have boasted that they have many thousands ready to fight with this Army, if they were commanded.

3^ly. Upon the Army’s drawing back from the Citty, the Parliament’s proceedings for the good of the people and Army hath been slack’d. Whilst the Army was drawing near, the Excise was lessened and eased, the injuries done to the Army considered, some moneys provided for them; but since its drawing back no moneys have been allowed them to pay their Quarters for the peoples ease and the Army’s content, there hath been no care to prevent the scandalizing of us, no discountenance of those that by pamphletts asperse as with mutinying, treason, and rebellion. And whether these neglects of us may not proceed from their confidence in those pretended auxiliaries, we leave to your wisdom to judge.

4^ly. The Votes of Parliament whereupon we drew back appear to have been intended to delude us, as:

1. Tho’ they declared that none should desert the Army from that time being they owned the Army, yet their first declaration that invited to desert the Army and promised their Arrears to those that should desert, it is not recalled; and tho’ the last seems to cross the first yet there is no penalty in their last vote putt upon those that shall desert us, and a promise is made in the first to those that shall desert it, and which of these discover the affections and intentions of the Parliament we must leave to their wisdom to determine.
2. Nothing hath been done to shew the mistake and error of those that did desert us, or to dissipate or discountenance them, tho’ it hath been much pressed since those votes.
3. They voted that the Army should be payd equally to those that deserted it, yet it was only when money could be raised conveniently; whereas they could find present moneys to pay them, on purpose to preferr them to us, and to abett and encourage them.
4. The Vote by this means is but a snare, seing they shall intimate to the Kingdom, that they are necessitated to tax them farther for our satisfaction.
5. They have since payd the Arrears of one of the impeach’d Members by 2000ɫ; at once, altho’ the House was inform’d that he was in debt to the State 15000ɫ;.
The removal of the Army to this distance necessitates such delays, as give further opportunity to the adverse party to make overtures of plausible advantage to the King’s party, and also to insinuate that our principles are against civil government; and certainly these endeavours may be well presumed by the overtures made to the Queen and Prince, and by the Parliament’s not declaring against all invitations of forreign force, after intelligence given of this design.
6. The removal of the Army to such a distance from London hath much dissatisfyed the well affected Commons throughout the Kingdom, especially because nothing was insisted upon for the present ease of the oppressed Commons, as expedient to be done before their drawing back, which considered together with the present delays and the thoughts of the delatory Treaty, hath abated their expectations in some measure of that precious freedom that they hoped should be the issue of the Army’s endeavours. And we cannot but observe that no country hath made their addresses to the Generall since their drawing back.a

Att a Generall Councell of Warre held att Reading. July 16, 1647.

Present.

His Excellency Sir Thomas Fairfax.

L^t. Gen. Cromwell.	Adj. Gen. Tulidah.
Com̃. Gen. Ireton.	Major Waade.
L^t. Gen. Hamond.	Q^r. Master Gen. Grosvenor.
Col. Whalley.	Major White
Col. Rainborow.	Capt. Blackwell.
Col. Lambert.	Capt. Pretty.
Col. Sir Hardresse Waller.	Capt. Kirkby.
Col. Okey.	Capt. Lloyde.
Col. Scroope.	Capt. Merriman,
Col. Tomlinson.	Capt. Neale.
Col. Fleetwood.	Capt. Rolf.
Col. Harrison.	Capt. Orpin.
Col. Pride.	Capt. Clarke.
Col. Barkestead.	Capt. A. Younge.
Col. Horton.	Capt. Wolfe.
Col. Rich.	Capt. Deane.
Adjutant Generall Deane.	Capt. Miller.
L^t. Col. Bowen.	Capt. Laighton.
L^t. Col. Cowell.	Capt. Hodden.
L^t. Col. Goffe.	Capt. Audley.
Major Disbrow.	Capt. Lagoe.
Major Huntington.	Capt. Rawlinson.
Major Gregson.	Capt. Watson.
Major Rainborow.
Major Abbott.	L^t. Chillenden,
Adj. Gen. Evelyn.	Capt. Scotton.

Lieut. Generall.

Moved for a Committee, many thinges then nott being fitt for debate, and the Councill of Warre to bee adjourn’dd till the afternoone.

L^t. Chillenden.

Answered and gives the consideration which moved them to every proposall or desire.

Commissary Ireton.

Objects, that itt’s desired this paper should be sent to London.

Answer. This paper first consider’d, and when consider’d noe body found that the paper should goe uppe to London, that thinges may bee had.

Col. Harrison.

That itt bee resolved whether to have a present debate or noe.

Comiss. Ireton.

That the end of the meeting was nott to have a paper brought in and read, when most of those that heare itt are the presenters.

I would wee were once cleare to consider in what condition wee stand as to that point.

I am, as all are, ready for the consideration of that, soe farre as my owne opinion serves, and soe every man heere may bee.

Delays, as they are hurtfull in bussinesse and soe most prejudiciall to those that are most hasty, so delusive, and I would nott have any such tendencie towards a Delusion as a delay;a therfore I desire wee may consider whether the Army should march to London in order to those thinges.

Major Tulida.

That all center in one thinge, that all the proposalls [will] bee of noe effect without a march to London.

Comptroller.

If any man bee satisfied in what hath bin [proposed] others heere are nott.

Lieut. Gen.

Marching uppe to London is a single proposall, yett itt does not droppe from Jupiter, as that itt should bee presently received and debated without considering our Reasons. For I hope this [temper] will ever bee in the Agitators, I would bee very sorry to flatter them, I hope they will bee willing that nothing should bee done butt with the best Reason, and with the best and most unanimous concurrence. Though wee have this desire back’t with such reasons, certainly itt was nott intended [to say] wee had noe reason to weigh those Reasons; for I thinke wee shall bee left to weigh these Reasons. All this paper is fill’d with Reasons: the dissatisfaction in particulars; the dissadvantages of removall from London; the advantages of marching towards London. You are ripe for a Conclusion, and gett a Conclusion; but lett this bee offer’d to the Generall and Councill of Warre.

Col. Rainborow.

That what hath bin spoken to the votes if other Gentlemen are not satisfied, itt is growne very hard if one will nott beleive another, and [will] adde much delay to our businesse, and therfore I am nott uppon intending of the Debate till 5 or 6 a clock upon that ground too.a That other ground in a bussinesse of such weight as this is, that if there can bee more reasons given, action will bee soe much the better accepted. Therfore I doe humbly move that since itt is a businesse of that consequence, privately and for our owne satisfaction, wee may have some little time to satisfie our judgements in itt, and to come prepar’d to give other Reasons in itt.

Com: Gen:

Wee act as if wee did [would?] gett the power into our owne hands.

To give the Kingdome satisfaction in the thinges that wee desire, itt is not the getting power into one man’s hands more then another, butt it is the setling and securing their liberties in order to a peace; though, as that Gentleman said, That noe body should withstand. There are some thinges prepared for that purpose if any know any particulars to bee added.

Before we doe bring ourselves into scandall and dishonour by putting it upon new Puntillios and quarrelling more, one is what itt is that wee intend to doe with that power when we have it.a

Lieut. Gen.

I desire we may withdraw and consider. Discourses of this nature will I see putt power into the hands of any that cannot tell. how to use it, of those that are like to use it ill.b I wish itt with all my heart in better hands, and I shall be glad to contribute to gett itt into better hands. If any man or companie of men will say that wee doe seeke ourselves in doing this, much good may it doe him with his thoughts. Itt shall nott putt mee out of my way.

The meeting att 6 a clock. Itt is nott to putt an end to this businesse of meeting, but I must consult with myself before I consent to such a thinge,a butt really to doe such a thinge [I must consult] before I doe itt. And wheras the Commissary does offer that these thinges were desired before satisfaction bee given to the publique settlement,b there may bee a conveniencie of bringing in that to the Councill of Warre next sitting, if itt bee ready, and thought fitt to be brought in. If these other things bee in preparation wee may bringe them in, that wee may nott bee to seeke for a Councill of Warre if wee had our businesse ready.

Capt. Clarke.

I humbly conceive that the sence of these Gentlemen present is noe other then what is for the good of the Kingdome, and that none of us have an intention to begin a new Warre. The [causes of] Warres in parties are noe other then the misplacing of the power of the Kingdome, and wee have as much reason as them, if itt bee misplaced, to misplace itt.c

Mr. Allen.

I wish that while wee have bin propounding of that which does tend to preservation, and the avoiding the Destruction that wee are confident is intended to the Kingdome and Army, that while wee are acting unto that end wee should take power out of men’s hands, and doe what wee may that wee may nott soe longe stand. Instead of getting a power to quarrell wee may nott doe any thinge that is our duty to doe. Itt is the desire of those that have the power, or the greatest parte of itt, in their hands to carry on thinges that they may have power.a Whether this bee a picking a quarrell I shall leave itt to your consideration.

Mr. Lockyer.

Itt is the great dissatisfaction of all the well-affected in the Kingdome [to see power in the hands of men] who have indeavoured to their utmost against us.

Com: Ireton.

Itt was partly intimated by the Gentleman that sitts neere your Excellency, and uppon that occasion itt is further apprehended by a Gentleman that sitts on that side, as if there were an expression to that purpose, that this was doneb with an intent to pick a Quarrell. I hope itt is nott, butt I neither know other men’s intents neither will I sweare for them. I must tell you againe, that I doe verily believe that all in this Companie heere have heard of some designes of the Enemy, to sett men a worke amongst themselves, some to worke one way and some another.c If there bee any such men thrust in amongst them, or any that are soe wrought uppon, which is a possibility, itt may bee suggested from them by precipitancie, nott uppon such a thinge.d I am farr from beleiving that itt is in the hearts or intentions of the generality, or for ought that I know, of any of these Gentlemen, to picke a Quarrell. My meaning is, itt carries the appearance of picking a Quarrell; and I thinke itt is a Rule of concernement to this Army, that, as we are just in our intentions, and doe nott intend knavery, soe wee should nott act like knaves, or any appearance of that nature.

[We should give the kingdom first] some reall tast of that which wee intend for the satisfaccion of the Kingdome, and what wee would doe with that power if we had itt in our hands [after] the putting of itt out of soe many hands. I have mov’d itt, and soe must again. Butt whether itt should bee putt out of these men’s hands [or not], itt should bee putt into those hands uppon whome in the matter they intend . . . . . .

Cornett Joyce.

The Commissary Generall speakes of things which hee gives as lawes to the Kingdome. Itt is too hard for us to give out lawes before the Kingdome is in a possibility of being setled, and itt is a great disadvantage for us to prescribe lawes when wee know not whether ever [we shall be able] to accomplish [a settlement].

Col. Harrison.

Names severall Committees to propose what thinges may bee answer’d, and what nott; and the rest of the thinges offer’d to bee consider’d by that time, to give some reasonable answer to that that is proposed to you.

Col. Rainborow.

That thinges might be manag’d as to your wisedomes shall bee thought fitt. For my parte I shall bee weary of the Meeting.

Committee appointed to looke over Engagements.
Lt. Generall.	Col. Scrope.	Mr. Sexby.
Com̃. Generall.	Col. Thomlinson.	Mr. Allen.
Col. Rainborow.	Col. Overton.	Mr. Lockyer.
Sir Hardresse Waller.	Col. Okey.	Mr. Clarke.
Col. Rich.	Col. Titchborne.	Mr. Stenson.
Adj. Gen. Deane.	Lieut. Gen. Hamond.	Mr. Underwood.

Afternoone.

Lieut. Gen.

If you remember there are in your paper 5 particulars that you insist uppon. Two of them are thinges new, that is to say, thinges that yett have nott bin at all offer’d to the Parliament or their Commissioners, that is the 2^d and the 4^th.a The 2^d, which concernes the Militia of the Citty, and the 4^th, which concernes the Release of those prisoners that you have named in your paper, and those that are imprisoned in the severall parts of the Kingdome, of whome likewise you desire a consideration might bee had now the Judges are riding their circuites.

To the first [we give you] this Account: That upon your former paper delivered,b and uppon the weight and necessity of the thinge, there has bin a very serious care taken by the Generall, hee having, as I told you to day, referr’d the preparing of somewhat for the Parliament concerning that to Col. Lambert and myself; and an account of that has bin given to the Generall att our meeting in the inner Roome; and, if itt please you, that which has bin in preparation may be read together with the Reasons of itt.

That paper that now itt is desired may bee read to you is parte of itt an answer to a former paper that was sent to the Commissioners concerning the excluding of the Reformadoes out of the lines of communication, and the purging of the House of Commons, and the discharging or sending away into Ireland the men that had deserted the Army. The Generall did order a paper to that purpose to bee sent to the Commissioners; and that paper, that now is to bee read to you of a reply to the Commissioners; and there is an addition of this businesse concerning the Militia with the Reasons to inforce the desire of itt

The papers read.a

Lieut. Gen.

Care taken of all them only two, which are concerning the suspending of the 11 Members and the discharging of prisoners.

I am commanded by the Generall to lett you know in what state affaires stand betweene us and the Parliament, and into what way all thinges are putt. ’Tis very true, that you urge in your papers concerning that effect that an advancing towards London may have, and of some supposed inconveniences that our drawing back thus farre may bringe uppon us; butt I shall speake to that presently. Our businesses they are putt into this way, and the state of our businesse is this: Wee are now indeavouring as the maine of our worke to make a preparation of somewhat that may tend to a generall settlement of the peace of the Kingdome and of the rights of the subject that Justice and Righteousnesse may peaceably flow out uppon us. That’s the maine of our businesse. These things are butt preparatory thinges to that that is the maine; and you remember very well that this, that is the maine worke of all, was brought to some ripenesse. The way that our businesse is in is this: for the redressing of all these thinges, itt [is] a Treaty, a Treaty with Commissioners sent from the Parliament downe hither to the end that an happy issue may be putt to all these matters that soe much concerne the good of the Kingdome, and therein our good is soe that they must bee finished in the way of a Treatie. The truth of itt is, you are all very reasonably sensible, that if those things were nott removed that wee thinke may loose us the fruite of a Treaty, and the fruite of all our labours, itt’s in vaine to goe on with a Treaty, and its dangerous to bee deluded by a Treaty. And therefore I am confident of itt, that lest this inconveniencie should come to us, lest there should come a second warre, lest wee should bee deluded by a longe Treatie, your zeal hath bin stirr’d uppe to expresse in your paper that there is a necessity of a speedy marching towards London to accomplish all these thinges. Truly I thinke that possibly that may bee that that wee shall bee necessiated to doe [in the end]. Possibly itt may bee soe; but yett I thinke itt will be for our honour and our honesty to doe what wee can to accomplish this worke in the way of a Treaty; and if I were able to give you all those Reasons that lie in the case, I thinke itt would satisfie any rationall man heere. For certainly that is the most desirable way, and the other a way of necessity, and nott to bee done butt in [a] way of necessity. And truly, instead of all reasons lett this [one] serve: that whatsoever wee gett by a Treaty, whatsoever comes to bee setled uppon us in that way, itt will be firme and durable, itt will bee conveyed over to posterity, as that that will bee the greatest honour to us that ever poore creatures had that wee may obtaine such thinges as these are which wee are now about. And itt will have this in itt too, that whatsoever is granted in that way itt will have firmenesse in itt. Wee shall avoide that great objection that will lie against us, that wee have gott thinges of the Parliament by force; and wee knowe what itt is to have that staine lie uppon us. Thinges, though never soe good, obtain’d in that way, itt will exceedingly weaken the thinges, both to our selves and to all posteritie; and therefore I say, uppon that consideration, I wish wee may bee well advis’d what to doe. I speake nott this that I should perswade you to goe about to cozen one another, itt was not in the Generall’s, nor any of our hearts.

For the other two thinges that they yett take noe care of, that’s the members impeached [and the prisoners], these are two additionall which will bee likewise taken care of to be considered, and answered nott with words and votes, but with content and action. In effect there hath bin consideration had of the matters in your papers, for there needs no more of our representing of them than these papers that have bin read. I believe that wee that are Commissioners should bee very positive and peremptory to have these thinges imediately granted, within the compass of time which your papers mention, within so many days. And if these be not granted in a convenient time, and answer given by the way proposed, you are yett putt in such a way in taking such a course of doing things as you have proposed sooner then that wee could nott have putt ourselves into a posture of doing.a

I hope in God that if wee obtaine these thinges in this way wee propose to you, and [in] this convenient time, that wee shall thinke our selves very happy that wee have nott gone any other way for the obtayning them. That which wee seeke [is] to avoide the having of a 2^d warre and the defeating of those [things] that are soe deare to us, whose interest ought to bee above our lives to us. If wee finde any thinge tending that way to delay us or disappoint us of those honest thinges wee are to insist uppon, I hope itt cannott nor shall nott bee doubted that the Generall nor any of us will bee backward for the accomplishment of those thinges wee have proposed. It remaines that you have some short account as the time will beare of that that has bin soe longe in preparation, which is that that tends to the Generall Settlement; and the Generall hath commanded the Commissary to lett you have a breif state of that.

Capt. Clarke.

I only offer this to your Excellency, whether the presenting of those thinges by way of Treaty will nott bee more dilatorie, and wanting of that virtue and vigour, than when itt comes from the hands of the Army more imediatelie, which though itt bee [from the Army] by way of Treatie [is] yett nott soe imediatlie [from it]?

And further, whether those propositionsa in order to the rights and liberties of the subject may nott prove in some measure obstructive to our present proceedinges, when they shall propose such thinges as the Kingdome shall nott bee satisfied in, or [not] soe necessary as these particulars which are very necessary in order to itt? For my owne parte I conceive thus much, that wee have very good and wholesome lawes already, if wee had butt good and wholsome Executors of them; and that’s the thinge wee insist uppon, to remove such persons that are most corrupt out of power and trust, and that such persons as are of knowne integritie may bee plac’t in their roomes. And wheras the Lieutennant Generall was pleased to move, that itt was the best way to compose the differences betweene the Parliament and Army by way of Treaty, I presume to say in the name of these Gentlemen, they likewise wish itt might bee soe. Butt truly, Sir, wee have great feares and jealousies that these Treaties, managed by a power soe adverse [?] to us, will prove rather destructive and delusive to us then any wayes certaine for our security and [for] the settlement of the Kingdom. If your Excellency please wee are very desirous that the paper presented to you might bee represented [to Parliament] as imediately from us and from this honourable Councill, and by the Agitators, which wee conceive will putt vigour and strength to the businesse, and wee hope effect that which [is] soe earnestly desired.

Lieut. Gen.

I may very easily mistake that which the other Officer offer’d to your Excellency. Two particulars which might receive retardement or obstruction by carrying them on in a way of Treatie, I mentioned indeed, particulars which were that of the 11 Members and that of the prisoners, and meant that thosea should goe as the sence of the whole Army. Hee conceives itt will adde vigour and strength to the desire and make our desires more easily granted [to] present not only those but all the rest [as the sense of the whole Army.]

If it bee soe all the rest will bee obstructed if they goe by way of Treatie. There may bee perhaps some mistake or forgetfulnesse in that which I offer’d to you. I thinke truly there is no objection lies in that which is said. For, soe farre as I know and discerne of these thinges and the way of management of them, if wee convey [this paper] to the Commissioners and by them to the Parliament as the sence of the whole [Army] represented by the Agitators to the Generall and assented to by the Councill of Warre, and [it] soe becomes the sence, nott only of the Armie that is the offended parte butt alsoe [of] the commanding parte of itt; and [if] wee represent itt to them with that positivenesse that hath bin spoken of, to be sent up to London, to which we desire an answer, and expect an answer within some few days, that is to say, within so short a time as they can have itt consulted, wee may call this a Treaty, butt I thinke itt signifies nothing else butt what that Gentleman speakes of.b Therefore for my parte I think theyc differ in nothing but in words, and not in substance.

I suppose there are resolutions nott to enter uppon a further Treaty till wee have an answer to these thinges, and if you have patience to heare that which is offer’d you to bee acquainted with from the Commissary Generall, I suppose that businesse may bee soe disposed of.a Therefore I shall desire that if itt please the Generall, that you mayb have an account of that other businesse by the Commissary Generall.

M^r. Allen.

May itt please your Excellency, I desire to offer one word. The Lieut. Generall hath bin pleased to give us an account that your Excellency together with your Councill have travel’d hard in the transacting and managing of thinges in order to the weale both of the Kingdome and Army, in which I hope wee are satisfied as concerning your care and fidelity therein. Butt truly wee cannott bee soe fully satisfied in the apprehension of your care in the managing and transacting of thinges for us, butt wee are as much sadded that thosec with whome you are transacting and endeavouring to manage these great affaires for us are taking soe little care of us while you in transacting are soe carefull of them, soe little care either to save your expence [of labour] or ours. Truly [as to] that which the Lieutennant Generall hath spoken, to conclude thinges in the way of Treatie, you conceive itt would bee singularly honourable to conclude them soe if possible. Itt hath bin our thoughts soe too, and therefore [we] have waited longe that wee might if possible have thinges ended in such a way; butt truly wee have waited soe longe as our patience is expended. The Lieutennant Generall hath exprest, that if things bee not ended in such a way then there is a ground to goe on in some other way. How farre that way hath falne short, and how farre that hasa presented us with a cleere ground to proceede in further, I shall leave itt to this honourable Councill to judge. And truly itt is that which is in most of our thoughts, that those who have bin treating with us are nott intended to conclude thinges in such a way. That when wee see God soe carried forth, or soe suffering mens spiritts to bee acted, that they shall refuse those peaceable thinges desir’d, that is the great thing observed by us.b And whether or noe proved once [God] hath nott pointed out some other way to us?c I thinke itt is most of our thoughts that hee has. And whether or noe nott such a way as this, namely, the proposall of these desires, those new ones, and those former that hath bin presented to them, [but] nott by them yet answered?d That which hath encouraged them rather nott to grant them hath bin our distance from them which our advancing towards them [will remove]. Itt is our thoughts that the proposall of these to them, and our speedy advance towards them, would be a preparation to attaine a speedy and a most effectuall answer to those thinges which wee desire, [in] which (if nott such a course taken) wee doe extreamely question that wee shall have nothing done. That now wee see delayes prove soe dangerous that they are almost every day expected to run into confusion, which [it] is the desire of you and of us to prevent, and wee have named those thinges that they may bee offer’d to the House, and that wee may march in order to a speedy procuring of an answer to them.

Lieut. Gen.

If that that I say of the Treaty bee applyed to one thinge which I meane of another, then there may haplya bee a very great misunderstanding of mee; butt that which I speake of Treaty, that relates to those thinges that are prepared for a generall Settlement of the Kingdome, bee applyed to the obtayning of these thinges which are to precede a Treaty, is that that I have said to you hath bin mistaken throughout, and instead of giving mee satisfaction of that point which stickes on so with every one of danger and delay butt that which I say of Treatie in answer to that is offer’d in your paper that wee should obtaine these by positive demand within a circumscribed time and going of the Commissioners. Yett using the name will nott offend if wee doe nott the thinges, that is [if] wee doe nott treate of those thinges.b

Give mee leave to offer one thinge to your consideration which I see you make to bee your ground of marching towards London; because itt came in my minde, I am sorry I did itt, butt this came in my minde, and I would nott offer itt to you butt because I really know itt is a truth. Wee are, as our friends are elsewhere, very swift in our affections and desires; and truly I am very often judged for one that goes too fast that way, and itt is the property of men that are as I am to bee full of apprehensions that dangers are nott soe reall as imaginary, to bee alwayes making hast, and more some times perhaps then good speede; wee are apt to misapprehensions that wee shall bee deluded through delay, and that there are noe good intentions in the parliament towards us, and that wee gather from the manifold bearing [?] of those words that wee have represented to them. Give mee leave to say this to you, for my owne parte perhaps I have as few extravagant thoughts, overweaning [thoughts] of obtaining great thinges from the Parliament as any man; yett itt hath bin in most of our thoughtes that this Parliament might bee a reformed and purged Parliament, that wee might see [there] men looking att publique and common interests only. This was the great principall wee had gone uppon, and certainly this is the principle wee did march uppon when wee were att Uxbridge, and when wee were att St. Alban’s, and surely the thing was wise, and honourable, and just, and wee see that providence hath led us into that way. Itt’s thought that the Parliament does nott mend—what’s the meaning of that? That is to say, that company of men that sitts there does nott meane well to us. There is a partie there that have bin faithfull from the sitting of the Parliament to this very day; and wee know their interests, and they have ventured their lives through soe many hazards, they came nott to the House butt under the apprehension of having their throats cutt every day. If wee well consider what difficulties they have past that wee may not run into that extreme of thinking too hardly of the Parliament. If wee shall consider that their businesse of holding their heads above water is the common worke, and every other day [’s work] and to day that which wee desire is that which they have strugled for as for life, and sometimes they have bin able to carry itt, others nott, and yett daily they gett ground.

Iff wee [wish to] see a purged Parliament, I pray lett mee perswade every man that hee would be a little apt to hope the best; and I speake this to you as out of a cleare conscience before the Lord, I doe thinke, that [that part of] the Parliament is uppon the gaining hand, and that this worke that wee are now uppon tends to make them gaine more; and I would wish that wee might remember this alwayes, that [what] wee and they gaine in a free way, itt is better then twice so much in a forc’t, and will bee more truly our’s and our posterities; and therefore I desire nott to perswade any man to bee of my minde, butt I wish that every man would seriously weigh these thinges.

Mr. Allen.

May itt please your Excellency and this honourable Councill, I suppose your Honour hath att this time spoke those good hopes and thoughts that you have of the Parliament; and truly they are the same thoughts and hopes that wee have longe had, and are loath to lay downe or to deviate from, did not too visible testimonie take us off, or wee would willingly see, and itt would bee the rejoicing of our spiritts to see, as possibly might be,a a Parliament soe reformed as might back this present power, and that power and aucthority might goe hand in hand to carry on that great worke in order to the Kingdomes welfare; which could they doe, I thinke itt would much facilitate your carrying of itt on. Your Honour is pleased to tell us (I suppose speaking your hopes therin) that the Parliament or the prevailing parte of itt is a gaining parte, and like to gaine more. Truly I could wish wee could say soe too; butt soe farre as wee are able to judge of ourselves wee must speake our feares. That wee conceive theyb are a loosing partie, and loosers rather then gainers. I think very few of us [believe] that they are at the present gainers, or like to be gainers. Whether our marching towards London may nott conduce to such an end, namely to the quelling of the spiritts of those who are acting as much as in them lies to make them and us and the kingdome be loosers? That they are loosers, and truly, if such a course bee nott taken to suppress those persons, that I fear itt will bee past our recovery to make them gainers, if wee lett them go on.a

Com̃. Generall.

I suppose this debate depends uppon these two thinges; First, whether those desires read bee likely soe effectually to bee sent uppe to London in the way as they are, or in the other deliver’d in to day; and the other [thing] is, whether itt bee nott fitt, whether you send [them] the one [way]b or the other, to resolve uppon a marching of the Army towards London. I conceivec the effect of what was said to your Excellency last was, to my understanding, butt meerly an answer of one reason that seem’d to have bin urg’d against the marching of the Army towards London.

And first I cannott butt take notice of what was said uppon that point, soe as to give the Gentleman that hath spoke and the rest some satisfaction too, or att least to shew how little reason they have to bee unsatisfied. Itt is suppos’d that those who appeare, who wee account to bee friends of the Commonalty, as to the Kingdome, and of Justice and righteousnesse, which do professe as wee tod seeke after itt, itt is suppos’d they are rather of the loosing then of the gaining hand; and I expected to have had some reasons why wee should thinke soe; butt the maine [reason given] was, that they didd nott soe fully nor soe wholly comply with this Army in all the thinges that they desire [as we think they ought to do].

I cannott blame [them] nor cannott see [how] any man [can] that walkes by that rule of doing to another as hee would bee done to, which is the only rule of justice. I doe nott understand how wee can thinke that of necessity they must satisfie us in all these thinges wee desire, and those [things] tending still to putt power into our hands, and to put all power too out of any other hands; I cannott expect itt reasonably from men. For what reason have I to expect that other men should trust mee more then I should trust to them? or that I should give them better testimonie of my fidelitie to them then they of their’s to mee, and especially of the fidelity and clearnesse of my intentions? Truly I thinke wee have some intimationsa that they are rather of the gaining hand, though I shall offer some [more]. You cannot but see they have prevail’d. We heare [that] there are daily uppon those votes many that doe discover themselves, and others that are discovered by others, that doe leave the House; and unlesse wee should thinke that those men of injustice and pusillanimityb may bee better friends to us then those that stay behinde, I cannott see how wee should thinke otherwise but they must needs bee by that of the gayning hand—I meane those that are friends to our interest, for the going against which, or betraying of which these men are cast out—and therefore I thinke that parte that was used of their being of the gaining hand, together with the consideration of the difficultie by which they doe carry these thinges daily—and att present they are strugling and striving with a partie that would carry all thinges with the worst to the Kingdome—I thinke [that consideration] ought to bee of [such] weight with us that wee should have some love towards them, as wee would expect that others should have the like towards us, if wee were in the like case.

I shall proceede to speake concerning the marching of the Army towards London for the inforcing of these desires, and concerning the way of sending uppe these desires of the Army. I cannott butt deliver my opinion, that itt would bee more effectuall if itt doe come as a paper agreed uppon by your Excellency, by your Councell of Warre, and by all the Agitators. [It] cannott butt bee more effectuall, then iff itt came in by the Commissioners that are appointed to treate, and soe I hope itt will bee satisfactory to them; and truly when wee have any thinge to say to the Parliament, and [it is] nott deliver’d [directly] to them, I thinke itt is a great incivility. Sir, I shall speake but a word or two concerning those apprehensions that I perceive there are of after troubles. For my owne parte I expect noe great matter, nor [do I desire] to putt much uppon the way of the Treaty; I should rather desire to shorten the worke, and if men doe understand your Excellency they may know that that which only hath occasioned the hope of any thinge in the Treatie is that wee would nott goe soe much in the way of Treatie, but the rather thinke of another way to drawe out all thinges out of our own proposalls;a and soe to make a short worke of itt without any longe proposall by way of debate. And whereas itt hath bin said, by any way of Treatie at all, there is little hopes expected, [but] if any [thing] discouragement,b because itt hath continued soe longe, and soe little done, I must deale freely and cleerly in that particular, that there is noe cause that I can apprehend for the starting of itt. Wee have noe reason to blame the Commissioners of Parliament, because they have still called uppon us to goe on in that Treatie, and they have sat still and bin content because wee have putt little into their hands.c And I must desire all these Gentlemen to consider that [in] the concluding of this by way of Treatie in order to the Settlement of the Kingdome, if there bee any delay, the fault of itt, if there bee any fault, itt lies wholly amongst our selves whatever itt bee; and I thinke much fault hath bin in none, [but there hath bin] a choice rather to present all thinges for the settlement of the Kingdom [together]. The other [reason] was because itt was nott [thought] soe fitt to proceede in itt till some other thinges for present securitie were satisfied, soe that there is noe reason indeed that those that have bin imployed in the Treatie should bee blam’d for itt as att this time; and I cannot butt adde one word more, that those Gentlemen that seeme to bee unsatisfied have little reason to blame any att all.

This preparation of an entire proposall of particulars they have bin desir’d, and I shall appeale to as many as have spoken to mee if I have nott made itt knowne that wee were uppon this worke of drawing all thinges for a proposall to the setling of the Kingdome.a Therfore [it was desired that] any man that had leasure and freedome and a minde to further the worke would thinke of any particulars to give in to my self and another that was sequestred or sett apart for that worke; and truly Sir, I thinke if noe man else hath prepared any other particulars, I thinke those that have prepared some particulars [deserve thanks]. Wee propose thus. Wee doe thinke that the settlement of peace is by having a settlement of itt in our hands; if ever itt doe come to settle, itt must bee by setting downe some thinge that may bee a rule to lay a foundation for the common rights and liberties of the people, and for an established peace in the Nation. I know nott [that] any of those Gentlemen that seeme to bee sensible of delayes, that any of them have tendred any thinge to the Commissioners that have satt, or have proposedb any termes wherein the settlement is.

I shall say no more to these, but [speak] to one [thing only] as to drawe the Army towards London. Truly Sir I should bee against it altogether, unlesse wee had proposed those thinges for setling the peace of the Kingdome, and doe finde a profest preparation against you. Butt I am the more against you because those thinges are not proposed, and nott the more because att present you propose such a thinge which may justly receive a deniall, I meane to those whom you do nott give such a full satisfaction in. I do not knowe that there is a thinge agreed upon to bee propos’d, I mean the proposall of the Militia in those hands.a I am concluded by the Councell soe farre as nott to speake any thinge att all against itt, only soe farre as nott to that wee should nott faile for that as to march uppe to London,b and I wish when wee doe itt wee should have a more reasonable thinge then for that. And, Sir, I shall say noe more to itt, but adde some inforcement, and that is, the consequence of seeking to gaine such thinges as these are by force. Truly I know nothing that can make any man to scruple the weight of that, except itt bee that hee thinkes there hath bin force offer’d already, and [that] therefore wee shall thinke of nothing heerafter butt force, and nott make account of any thinge that can bee obtain’d any other way. If a man hath nott that apprehension this argument must bee a very weighty one.c I should butt desire to minde that which is visible and apparent in the papers, which was the only appearance of any kinde of threatning. And I say yett, my ground thena was that this Army stood as it were proscrib’d; you stood butt as outlawes, all that were amongst you were invited to come away from you, and you were putt out of protection, and noe body owning of you as their Army. That was one Reason. Another Reason [was that those] who were the profest, open, knowne Enemies of the Army, who had (according to those thinges wee have impeached them for) indeavoured to engage in a Warre, they had place in Parliament, and such place and power in all Committees of Parliament as did give them a cleere advantage openly and aboveboard to carry on thinges for a Warre, and we saw very visible effects of that. Truly from that time [we have] seene an alteration as to that, and that is first of all that they are withdrawne from the House, and they are nott suffer’d to appeare that I can heere upon action as members of the House. There is nothing wanting butt a positive order for the sequestring of them the House, and that I thinke there is a greate deale of Justice to demand, and to demand with a further inforcement.

I speake all to this purpose, that wee had uppon our former march to London better grounds, and now wee have nott any left us. Wee were in all probability butt as ruin’d men, under noe acknowledgement nor own’d by noe body, by noe aucthoritie in the Kingdome. In that the case is very clearly alter’d, and for my owne parte I doe nott understand how we can have the same ground to goe agen now; but I apply all to this conclusion, that before wee had such a cleare ground for our going uppe that all might conclude that wee had reason to doe that, or else to have wholly laid downe our armes, and deserted the cause and interest wee have taken, for wee could nott continue in armes till that were done.

Mr. Allen.

The Commissary Generall’s discourse hath bin large, and truly my memory and the time is something short. I shall nott speake butt only to one particular, and that the last, because itt is most fresh in my memory, and perhaps some heere have had thoughts of the former. Concerning our marching uppe to London, I take itt itt is waiv’d uppon this ground, that wee have nott now that reason as formerly wee had when wee did before march uppe towards itt; and the reason that then wee had was this, wee lay as a disown’d Army and wee had a House unpurg’d. Truly to that I shall only breiflie reply, that I doe confesse wee are own’d in name, butt I doubt nott in nature, to bee the Parliaments Army. And truly I will only hinte att some thinges in order to that, that give mee some grounds soe to suspect that we are nott own’d as their Army. Meerly the reason is, if wee were they would never suffer us to bee traduc’t, revil’d, and rail’d uppon both in pulpitts and presses continually as wee are, butt itt would bee a little laid to heart by a Parliament owning us as their Army, and itt would reflect uppon their honour as well as ours. I conceive that they ought to doe some thinge in vindication both of our owne and their Honour in that particular; butt seing them silent and all this while wee should lie under itt, and I feare this is only that that they would putt upon us that wee are in name the Parliament’s Army. Butt I will say noe more to that. As to the purging of the House [it is said that] there have been great thinges done. The Membersa they are att present debarr’d of sitting there, and there wants butt an ordinance or something to that purpose—which is almost all—to the sequestring of them wholly. I feare yett they are in a capacitie of doing too much, and till they shall more fully declare themselves as to that, I question if wee looke nott uppon thinges in a multiplying glasse. And truly as those were the reasons uppon which the weight of our marching laid, as that our intentions might bee made knowne to the Kingdome that soe wee might have a cleare and undoubted way to gett swords out of mens hands that will cutt our throates with them. To mee itt seemes strange that this should bee a sufficient ground. I wish that while wee are laying to our selves a full ground, by a full foundation for a large structure, some body does nott interpose betweene us. If when we have presented ourselves and mindes to the view of the Kingdome as intending to satisfaction to satisfie, whether or noe this is nott that which wee expected and wee know what they doe intend, wee’ll seeke to helpe our selves in another, and soe the other and the other way, and truly if you have noe power in your hands, why truly of what a consequence such a thinge may bee I leave itt to you to judge.a

Lieut. Gen.

This I wish in the generall, that wee may all of us soe demeasne our selves in this businesse that wee speake those thinges that tend to the uniting of us, and that wee doe none of us exercise our parts to straine thinges, and to lett in thinges to a longe dispute, or to unnecessary contradictions, or to the stirring uppe of any such seede of dissatisfaction in one anothers mindes as may in the least render us unsatisfied one in another. I doe nott speake this that any body does doe itt, butt I say this ought to become both you and mee, that wee soe speake and act as that the end may bee union and a right understanding one with another.

Truly, if I thought that which was last spoken by Mr. Allen had bin satisfactory to that end for which hee spake itt, I should nott have said any thinge to you. Butt for that [answer] which hee made to the Commissary [General’s argument] of the Parliament’s owning of us, and what a thinge that was to us, and how much tending to the settlement of the peace of the Kingdome, to say or to thinke ‘itt is butt a titular thinge that, and butt in name only that they doe owne [us,]’ I thinke is a very great mistake. For really itt did att that time lay the best foundation could bee expected for the preventing an absolute confusion in this Kingdome; and I thinke if wee had nott bin satisfied in that, wee should nott have bin satisfied in any thinge. And [it is a very great mistake] to thinke that this is any weighty argument, ‘itt is butt titular, because they suffer scandalous bookes flock uppe and downe,’—I would nott looke they should love us better then they love themselves, and how many scandalous bookes goe out of them. Wee have given them and the Parliament more to doe then attend [to] scandalous bookes. I hope that will not weigh with any man; and I desire wee may putt this debate to a conclusion, or else lett us answer those thinges that are really and weightily objected, as truly that was [not]. They have given us as reall a testimonie that they cannott give more. They cannott disowne us without the loosing of all rationall and honest people in the Kingdome; and therfore lett us take itt as a very great and high owning of us; lett nott us disown that owning. If any man would by that which was objected wee would have peace, a perfect settlement of all wee seek and we would march to London to say wee fore’t them.a —Really, Really, Have what you will have, that you have by force I looke uppon itt as nothing. I doe nott knowe that force is to bee used, except wee cannott gett what is for the good of the Kingdome without force. All the arguments must tend to this, that itt is necessary to use force, to march uppe with the Army, and nott to tarry 4 dayes. [Was not the argument thus]a wee shall bee baffled, denied, and shall never march uppe, butt still bee patient and suffer, even to have the ruine of the Kingdome as hath bin imagin’d [if we do not march within four days]. Expect a speedy answer which hath bin offer’d, and to make that criticall to us whether they owne us or intend to perfect the settlement as wee expect. The Kingdome would bee sav’d [even] if wee doe not march within 4 dayes, if wee had these thinges granted to us. If these thinges bee granted to us wee may march to Yorke. I wish wee may respite our determination till that 4 or 5 dayes bee over, till wee see how thinges will bee, except you will urge reasons to show itt to bee of absolute necessity to all those ends to determine just now that wee will march uppe to London to morrow or next day. I am sorry that wee bee nott satisfied with that which hath bin propos’d as to this very thinge, and [hope] thatb having had assurance these thinges were putt into such a way as hath bin offer’d to you that you will rest contented with this as att this time, except you will show us some absolute reasons.

Major Tulida.

The Lieutennant Generall hath putt itt to a good issue, for the weight of the businesse lies heere. That those proposalls presented to your Excellency to day, and those thinges wee all doe conclude on to be necessary, but there seems a difference in the way.c I cannot butt adde that there is a great deale of faith in this, that wee doe [all] conclude our owne [way] as the accomplishing of the thinges. Whether you should represent that wee cannott probably obtaine them? And really Sir to my apprehension the representation of a swete and honourable way of Treating is as much wish’t and desir’d by mee as by any. If I shall cast my eye ona what is represented by these Treaties, and by the consequence of them, I should stand att a distance from them. I shall nott putt the fault uppon the Commissioners [of the Parliament] or uppon those that were your Excellencie’s Commissioners, butt in the conclusion wee are noe further then where wee were att Uxbridge; nay, nott soe farre, and the same thinges pressb uppon us. And therfore —, though some have mentioned [as] to the Parliament, that wee should [not] expect from them any thinge that they could nott accomplish, — therefore, Sir, as our advancing to Uxbridge putt them into [such] a way that they had liberty to speake, if our advance to Uxbridge sett them on the legges, nothing will expedite them to putt them into the same [way] of boldly speaking for the Kingdomes interest [like our advance] towards the City.c Wee seeme to bee startled att the expression of forcing thinges—Doe wee force, or doe wee desire by forcing [anything] butt that with [once] forcing there should bee noe more forcing? That by the sword wee may take the sword out of those hands that are enemies to justice, to equity? Itt was by forcing this, and soe wee conceiving the emergent necessity that without an advance to London wee cannott have any other accomplishment to these proposalls I desire that all may bee putt to this issue. As to the thinge propounded by the Lieutennant Generall, I doe nott know that wee can promise our selves soe as that wee can have itt,d when they doe nott owne us to bee their Army; and for the Militia of London there is as great necessity for us to advance to London. Wee cannott have any thinge unlesse by the way of advancing to London.

Lieut. Gen.

Truly the words spoken by Major Tulidah were [spoken] with affection, butt wee are rationall [men]. I would faine know with what reason or colour of reason hee did urge any reason but only with affirmation of earnest words. For that Declaration of the Parliament, the Parliament hath own’d us, and taken off that that any man can loyally or rationally charge us with. If uppon his apprehensions or any man’s else, wee shall quarrel with every dogge in the streete that barkes att us, and suffer the Kingdome to bee lost with such a fantasticall thinge? I desire that nothing of heate or earnestnesse may carry us heere, nor nothing of affirmation, nor nothing of that kinde may lead us, butt that which is truly reason, and that which hath life and argument in itt.

To that which was alledged that by our marchinga to Uxbridge wee open’d those honest mens mouthes to speake for us. This is nott to be answer’d with reason, butt this is matter of fact, and better knowne to some of us then itt is to Major Tulida or any of you. ’Tis true there was [a] feare and an awe uppon the Parliament by our marching to Uxbridge, there was some thinge of that, for those 11 Members were afraid to bee in the House. If you will beleive that which is nott a fancie, they have voted very essentiall thinges to their owne purging, and I believe this, iff we will believe that which is the truth in fact,b uppon that very one vote that was pas’t,—concerning the putting a fine or penalty [on those] that knew themselves to bee guilty, and that if they did nott goe out should accuse themselves to bee liable to sequestrationa —I believe there will goe 20 or 30 men out of the House of Commons. And if this bee [not] an effect and demonstration of the happy progresse, [they have made] and that by use of that libertie that they have had by our [not] drawing neere, I appeale to any man? And if they shall, as I said before, disowne us, and wee give them noe cause to doe itt, butt pressing only just, and honourable, and honest thinges from them, judge you what can the world thinke of them and of us? Butt [what can the world think if] wee shall doe that, whilest wee are uppon the gayning hand, that shall really stoppe their mouthes, to open their mouthes in a title for us. That whilest they are, as fast as they can, gayning the thinges wee desire, if wee shall bee soe impatient that whilest they are strugling for life that they are unable to helpe us and gain’d more within these 3 dayes then in 10 dayes for aught I know wee may by advancing stoppe their mouthes.b They will nott have wherwithall to answer that middle partie in the House who is answer’d with this reason, “you see the Army is contented to goe backward, you see the Army is willing, to make faire representationsc of that they have from us.” I professe, I speake itt in my conscience, that if wee should move untill wee had made these proposalls to them, and see what answer they will give them, wee shall nott only disable them butt divide among our selves; and I as much feare that as any thinge; and if wee should speake to your satisfactions you must speake to our satisfactions though there bee great feares of others I shall very much question the integritie of any man, I would nott have itt spoken.a

Cornett Joyce.

What I shall speake is nott against that which is prepared and are to be presented to the House, butt I should thus offer [this] unto the Lieutennant Generall and likewise to the Commissary Generall; whether or noe when the Parliament did vote or declare us to bee their Army [they] did owne our act in fighting of the Kinge? Againe, if in case they have left out that, and doe nott owne that, there may bee some thing that may cause a . . . . . . . to neglect this Army.

Mr. Sexby.

To mee this seemes very cleare, and I cannott see yet any satisfaction to itt. I conceive that what the Parliament has done in reference to their declaring us their Army was uppon this ground, that they did [it] rather out of feare then love. My reasons are these: first, because to this day those that deserted us are [better] look’t uppon, countenanc’t, and abundantly better paid then wee. 2^ndly. Because us yett they looke uppon us as Enemies for this reason, that they send to treate with us; for truly Parliaments or Armies never treate with friends butt Enemies, and truly wee cannott butt looke uppon our selves soe.

Major Disbrow.

Soe farre as I understand, a great deale of this last is farre from the businesse in hand. Most men cry out for expedition, and this is nott the way to itt. One [point] that the Commissary Generall answer’d them fully in [was] the manner of presenting this paper. Another was a speedy marching, . . . . . . . and to itt many have rather offer’d their owne fancies then any expedient. Some for a speedy marching and others to march within 4 dayes. I humbly offer this, that if there were reason to resolve now to march to London, [whether] preparations would nott last soe longe [as four days]? I conceive this, that the chief ground of difference [is] of marching to London or nott marching to London; and itt is prest uppon this consideration, because there is noe expectation of [obtaining] what is propounded without the Army goes to backe itt. I only offer this to all reasonable men, whether itt bee nott an unreasonable way? Itt hath bin often agen and agen moved that there may bee an answer [obtained] by Munday night or Tuesday morning; and truly you could nott sett forward a march before; and therefore I offer itt to your Excellency that wee might nott take pleasure in speaking our own [fancies] butt to minde the businesse in hand, if any man hath any thinge to speake.

Lieut. Scotton.

One of the great ones was,a since wee see that your Excellency and the Councill of Warre hath bin pleas’d to take itt into consideration as to proceede to a Treaty, and truly I hope that reason that I have heard observ’d. Wee are soe farre satisfied to bring our desires about and waive the marching to London. I have one word [to say] that it does lie uppon our spiritts that there may bee a reall and effectuall course taken that [Lt.-Col. Lilburne] is freed.

Cornett Spencer.

I am now come from the Citty. There is this day many Officers of the Militia to take the names of every Apprentice and to cause them to bee ready uppon an houres warning. That yesterday uppon the Kinges coming to Maidenhead.a That you and all of your Army I thinke wee may as well goe alonge with them as with our Army, as the Scotts did, and were justified, and therefore if wee bee right —

Lieut. Gen.

Truly Sir I thinke neither of these 2 thinges that Gentleman spoke last are any great newes. For the one of them, the listing of Apprentices, I doubt they have listed them twice over; I am sure wee have heard [it] more then twice over. For the other [that our friends in London] would rejoice to see us come uppe, what if wee [be] better able to consult what is for their good then themselves? Itt is the generall good of them and all the people in the Kingdome [we ought to consult]. That’s the question, what’s for their good, nott what pleases them. I doe nott know that all these considerations are arguments to have satisfaction in these things that wee have in proposition. If you bee in the right, and I in the wronge, if we wee bee divided I doubt wee shall all bee in the wronge. . . . Whether of them will doe our worke, lett them speake without declaring.b Lett us nott thinke that this is a greater argument that they love those that deserted, that they have paid them and nott us, which was Mr. Sexbye’s argument, which if itt had weight in itt I should have submitted to itt. The Question is singly this: whether or noe wee shall nott in a positive way desire the answer to these thinges before wee march towards London, when perhaps wee may have the same thinges in the time that wee can march. Heere is the strictnesse of the Question.

Major Tulida.

That if any thinge bee spoken, to say itt is out of zeale, that wee should abound in our sence — I humbly desire there may bee libertie to speake, and that a providence may carry thinges, and nott that way.

Col. Rich.

There has bin a longe debate. There are only two thinges in Question: whether the paper and 5 particulars should goe as they are, or that this paper should bee first insisted uppon? and then whether this paper should bee presented to the Commissioners [of the Parliament] heere as from the Councill [of the Army] or from the Commissioners [of the Army]? Itt is well that itt should goe as from this Councill. The second is for the march to London. As for our marching to London the Lieut. Generall putts itt uppon this issue; whether wee shall march now or stay 4 dayes? To decide itt with a Question whether wee shall march to London, or noe.

Lieut. Chillenden.

That that proposall which my Lieutenant Generall propos’d to your Excellency concerning the proposall of this, for my parte to mee itt gives great satisfaction in my spiritt for to see itt, and I hope there will bee the like uppon my parte. And alsoe for the other concerning the prisoners, itt lies soe weighty uppon my spiritt, and truly I hope your Excellency and this Councill of Warre are those [that will insist upon it] . . . . . [But] that att this juncture of time the Judges are going the Circuites I should nott trouble your Excellency and this Councill of Warre concerning itt. That that paper may goe concluding all thinges in itt.

Commissary Gen.

That hee would have the 5 particulars in itt goe, butt nott the paper [itself], for [in] that itt is propos’d the Army should march towards or to London. If wee have friends in the Parliament or Citty that wish well to the Army or Kingdome, I could nott butt expect to loose them by itt, if they should butt see such a spiritt in this Army that they putt [force uppon] them . . . . . uppon such thinges [to] which some of them were never oppos’d.

Another expression, ‘that they should nott only bee sequestred butt disabled.’ I confesse I doe nott understand the justice of that ground, and I pray God this Army may avoide itt.a

Att a Generall Councill of Warre att Reading. July 17, 1647.

Commissary Ireton.

That those papersb doe nott concerne the Army in particular butt the whole Kingdome in generall.

Lieut. Gen.

That all prejudices might bee removed.

Com̃. Ireton.

There could bee butt 2 wayes: either by Treatie, or else to have such an intire proposall of particulars prepared, as might neede the lesse delay in way of Treatie. The Commissioners are those that your Excellency was pleased to appoint. Itt was offer’d to us by the Commissioners of the Parliament parte, whether wee would draw out particulars, or [make] an intire proposall of all together? Though there was noe publique proposall [ready], yett wee did satisfie our selves how longe and teadious itt would have bin to draw out particulars by way of debate by the Commissioners there; and therefore truly I was, with the consent of your Excellency and the rest of the Commissioners, sequestred from that imployment of the Treatie to make some preparation of particulars fitt to tender to your Excellency and the Army as were declared in itt.a That if any body could thinke of any other particulars that concern’d the Kingdome every man was as free to doe as my selfe or any other, and would have bin as well accepted; and for my owne parte I should have bin glad that any other would have sett himselfe on worke as I did.

One thinge, the Parliament have sent propositions to the Kinge; wee have nott had any from them.

[a ]So in MS. These papers are from very corrupt transcripts.

[a ]“Except such as shall by the Parliament’s appointment receive their commission from, and be at the disposal, etc.?”

[b ]An earlier paper on the subject of the release of these prisoners had been presented by the Agitators on July 6. Clarke MSS. xli.

[a ]Edmund Rolfe was Captain in Hammond’s regiment, and accused in 1648 of a design against the King’s life. The papers respecting this accusation are printed at length in the Lords’ Journals, in Rushworth, and in Cary’s Memorials. A petition of Rolfe’s is in Cal. State Papers, Dom. 1654, 352.

[a ]On the petitions presented to the General and Army see Whitelock’s Memorials, ed. 1853, ii., 164; Holles, Memoirs, § 110.

[a ]i.e. As delays are prejudicial so haste is delusive, I wish to avoid both.

[a ]i.e. I am not in favour of beginning the debate till—

[a ]The confused report of Ireton’s speech may be thus paraphrased:—

“We act as if we sought only to get power into our own hands. It is not getting power into one man’s hands more than another’s, but the settling and securing the liberties of the kingdom, we ought to seek. Before we bring ourselves into scandall and dishonour by raising new points of dispute and quarrelling more, the one thing necessary is to satisfy the kingdom what it is we want, and what we intend to do with that power when we getit. Some particulars have been prepared by me for that purpose, etc.”

[b ]Cromwell’s remarks may be thus paraphrased: “Let us withdraw and consider. Discourses of this kind serve no useful purpose. I see power put in the hands of many that cannot tell me how to use it, of those that are likely to use it ill;” meaning the London Militia Commissioners.

[a ]i.e. marching on London.

[b ]i.e. that satisfaction be given as to the public settlement before these new things are desired.

[c ]i.e. to placeit in better hands.

[a ]Allen’s argument seems to be: “I wish, do whatever we may, that we may not stand idle while we are propounding these proposals for the preservation of the kingdom, etc. While we are making these preparations we must take power out of the hands of these men. It is not a case of quarrelling to get power, but doing a thing that it is our duty to do. The people now in power desire so to carry things that they may have power to destroy us and the kingdom. Whether to deprive them of that power be picking a quarrell, etc.”

[b ]i.e. this paper presented.

[c ]Several words are here omitted.

[d ]For such a design.

[a ]See p. 171.

[b ]The paper on the London Militia presented on July 6.

[a ]Army Declarations, p. 77, paper entitled An Answer of the Commissioners of the Army to the Paper of the Commissioners of Parliament about a speedy proceeding. Cf. ibid., p. 49, paper of July 15.

[a ]In this paragraph the order of the clauses as given in the MS. has been altered. excepting in the case of the last three lines, which are past mending.

[a ]MS. “preparations.”

[a ]MS. “means by those that.”

[b ]The report is here very confused and I have altered the position of several clauses to make the sense clearer.

[c ]Our proposals.

[a ]Here follows in the MS. “As that it may be seen to all the world that itt is an effectuall meanes to procure these things to bee granted as marching to London would doe.” This sentence evidently belongs to the end of the preceding paragraph.

[b ]MS. “that the Commissioners General may by you.”

[c ]i.e. the Parliament.

[a ]MS. “was.”

[b ]Clause transposed.

[c ]Proved once, i.e. when this is once proved.

[d ]The speaker’s meaning seems to be that God has purposely prevented the parliament from accepting the terms of the army and thus pointed out to the army the necessity of using another way to obtain them.

[a ]MS. “happily.”

[b ]Though the reporter has irreparably confused Cromwell’s actual words his meaning is plain enough.

“That which I speak of the advantages of a treaty relates only to the propositions for a general settlement of the kingdom. What I said to you on that point has been mistaken throughout if it be applied to the obtaining of the things which are to precede a treaty. You keep on misapplying that instead of giving me satisfaction as to the question of the danger of delay. That which I say in answer to the proposal in your paper is that we should obtain these things by a positive demand, and within a circumscribed time, forwarding them through the Commissioners the Parliament has appointed to treat. There is no harm in nominally using the Commissioners for this purpose if we do not treat with them, but merely turn them into messengers.”

[a ]Clause transposed.

[b ]Our friends in the Parliament.

[a ]The report is here amended by transposing several clauses.

[b ]MS. “partie.”

[c ]MS. “perceive.”

[d ]MS. “as wee professe doe.”

[a ]MS. “intentions.”

[b ]Clause transposed.

[a ]To draw out our own proposals of all things.

[b ]Two clauses transposed.

[c ]See the letters of the Parliamentary Commissioners dated July 6, July 8, July 10, and July 18, and the paper delivered by them to the Commissioners of the Army on July 7, in which they complain that the proceedings of the Army Commissioners in the treaty have been very slow. Old Parliamentary History, xvi., pp. 93, 95, 97, 107, 115; printed also in the Lords’ Journals, and in the Collection of Army Declarations.

[a ]On the history of the drawing up of the Heads of the Proposals agreed on by the Army, see Memoirs of Sir John Berkeley, Maseres, Select Tracts, i., 353, and Wildman’s Putney Projects, 1647, p. 13. The other person mentioned as set apart for that work appears to have been Lambert, v. post. p. 212, and Whitelock, ii., 163 ed. 1853.

[b ]MS. “of proposing.” The order of the sentences in this paragraph is evidently wrong.

[a ]The last two sentences should probably run thus, “But I am the more against you because those things are not proposed—I do not know that there is a thing agreed upon to be proposed—and not the less because at present you propose to those to whom you do not give such a full satisfaction a thing which may justly receive a deniall. I mean the proposal of returning the Militia into the hands of those in whom it lately was” On the Militia, v., pp. 152, 171, 174.

[b ]This may be thus paraphrased and emended, “I am bound by the opinion of the rest of the Councell so far as not to speak anything against that proposal itself, but I may go so far as to say that I would not have you for that fall to march up to London.”

[c ]Ireton’s words perhaps were as follows: “I should but desire to remind you that that which is visible and apparent in your papers now is only the appearance of a kind of threatening.”

[a ]When the Army first marched on London early in June, 1647.

[a ]The eleven impeached members.

[a ]The minor speakers are not so well reported as the more important ones Allen’s argument appears to be,“As for the reasons on which the weight of the argument against our immediate marching is laid, viz., that we might make our intentions known to the kingdom, etc.—it seems strange to me that these should be thought sufficient grounds. I fear that while we are preparing our scheme for a settlement some one may step in between us and the settlement of the kingdom. What if when we have presented our heads of a settlement to the people, as intending to satisfy them whether they will or no, we fail to satisfy them? What if they say ‘this is not what we expected, now we know what they mean we’ll help ourselves some other way,’ and so some take one way, some another way? If in such confusion you have no power in your hands what will the consequences be?”

[a ]May be paraphrased thus, “If any man urges, we would have a perfect settlement of all we seek, and would therefore march to London. Say we did force them to grant what we ask.”

[a ]MS. “if the argument was not thus.” This clause is transferred from the line below.

[b ]MS. “if.

[c ]Clause transposed from two lines below.

[a ]MS. “in.”

[b ]MS. “prest.”

[c ]Clause transposed.

[d ]MS. “I do not know as to the thing propounded by the Lieutenant General, I do not know that wee cannot promise ourselves soe as that wee cannot have it, nor then.”

[a ]MS. “By that which was alleged of our marching.”

[b ]On July 5 a vote was passed that no persons who had been in actual war against the Parliament, or accepted pardons from the King, or taken any part in bringing about the cessation or otherwise assisting the Rebellion in Ireland, or were sequestered by Parliament for delinquency should presume to sit in the House of Commons. Commons’ Journals, v. 233. Those who infringed this order were by a second vote of July 9 to be liable to the penalties imposed in the Newcastle propositions on those who had sat in the Oxford Parliament, i.e., to be guilty of high treason and their estates to be sequestrated (ibid., p. 238; Gardiner, Constitutional Documents, p. 217).

[a ]The report is here very confused. What Cromwell said was probably this, “If we will believe that which is the Truth in Fact, not that that which isa fancy, they have voted very essential things to their own purging.”

[b ]Cromwell’s argument seems to be this: “Shall we do that whilst they are upon the gaining hand in order to open their mouths in a title forus, that shall really stop their mouths? If we shall be so impatient—and that whilst they are as fast as they can gaining us the things we desire and have gained us more in the last 3 days than in 10 days whilst they were struggling for life and could not help us—for aught I know we may by advancing stop their mouths.” ‘In a title’ should perhaps be in a ‘tittle’ or may refer to the proposed declaration against foreign forces.

[c ]MS. “fancie representations.”

[a ]This might be rearranged thus: “And though there be great feares of other things I fear dividing as much as anything, and I shall very much question the integrity of any man that does not. I would not have the word spoken.”

[a ]One of the greatest reasons for marching was removed.

[a ]Spencer refers to the King’s coming to Maidenhead to meet the Duke of York, July 15. Rushworth, vi. 625. His argument seems to be, “Our friends wished we had come with the King and would march up to London with them.”

[b ]Cromwell’s meaning appears to be: “Let us call on the Parliament to declare without delay whether they will do our work or not.”

[a ]Referring to the case of the eleven impeached members.

[b ]The papers in question are the heads of the Army’s proposals.

[a ]The last words seem to belong to the next sentence. “That as was declared in the vote appointing me, if anybody, etc.”

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[ Articles against General Poyntz. ] - Sir William Clarke, The Clarke Papers. Selections from the Papers of William Clarke, vol. 1 [1901]

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[Articles against General Poyntz.]

Representation of the Agitators presented at the Generall Councill of Warr July 16, 1647.

To his Excellency Sir Thomas Fairfax Knight Captain General of all the Forces raised and to be raised for the defence of the Kingdom, and to his Councill of Warr assembled at Cambridge July 16, 1647.

Lieut. Generall.

Lt. Chillenden.

Commissary Ireton.

Col. Harrison.

Comiss. Ireton.

Major Tulida.

Comptroller.

Lieut. Gen.

Col. Rainborow.

Com: Gen:

Lieut. Gen.

Capt. Clarke.

Mr. Allen.

Mr. Lockyer.

Com: Ireton.

Cornett Joyce.

Col. Harrison.

Col. Rainborow.

Lieut. Gen.

Lieut. Gen.

Capt. Clarke.

Lieut. Gen.

Mr. Allen.

Lieut. Gen.

Mr. Allen.

Com̃. Generall.

Mr. Allen.

Lieut. Gen.

Major Tulida.

Lieut. Gen.

Cornett Joyce.

Mr. Sexby.

Major Disbrow.

Lieut. Scotton.

Cornett Spencer.

Lieut. Gen.

Major Tulida.

Col. Rich.

Lieut. Chillenden.

Commissary Gen.

Commissary Ireton.

Lieut. Gen.

Com̃. Ireton.

L^t. Chillenden.

M^r. Allen.